Lets talk about Devotion

I think it important that before we talk about who is doing something wrong, that we first establish whether or not someone is following the same paradigmn.  This is inspirted by KrasskovasI Screeches, and other Recons, who want us to do it more the way of the ancients.  So lets talk about this shall we?

I don't know about anyone elses paradigm but to me my Gods are family and close friends.  This has been forged in the fires of my life.  It has organically worked out to be that way.  Others may have different ways of relating.

What does that mean to me.  It means they are honest with me.  It means we have ups and downs.  It means I am not subservient nor do I abase myself.  It means I do, what I can do, of what I am asked. For many years, and I've written this before, I wasn't asked for devotions, but to learn butterfuly gardening, or do other tasks, the most imp is to be the Holy sticky note and pass on messages, that I can here, and to be a shoulder for others to lean on and cry on.  I still have a strong indication that duty is more imp, then how many candles I light and how much food I put on the altar.

I am not my ancestors.  I am not going to sacrifice a virgin, to stop the volcano from blowing up.  Our ancestors put a lot of devotion because they felt they had to APPEASE the Gods or else bad things would happen.  We aren't them.  So relationships and devotoins have changed and that is a good thing.

Our Gods don't have the temples that they once used to.  They definately dont' have the same priests. THis isn't Alexandria, where you hire engineers to concock wonders to lure more worshippers to the temple.

No our relationships and our blogging are more personal.  Our relationship are more intimate.  They aren't subject to what the High Priest or Priestess believe(despite what some self appointed would like to think) they are subject to what The Gods we worship and us believe and how we work it out.

If others are different, please lets talk, so that others can see the different paradigmns.  Lets discuss how it is with you, and what works.

Krasskova is sticking her foot in her mouth yet again.

Krasskova is sticking her foot in her mouth and talking out of her ass again.  https://krasskova.wordpress.com/2015/01/29/impossible-standards-of-devotion/  Oh noes we are doing it wrong again.  Rolls eyes.

Hey Galina, way to make yourself sound more pretentious and elitist then some of the Asatruar on Asatru Lore.  Do you think writing a few books makes you some sort of qualified expert? You were a decent person to look at when you were talking from your own perspective, now you have turned into a cultish quack twitching whenever someone takes away some "power" you think you have.

Now here are some real life reasons people don't do it the way you do.

1. They haven't been asked to yet.

2. They(gasp I know this might come as a surprise) don't have the time, energy, or mental spoons yet.  Real life may be pooping all over them.  Not everyone goes the Catholic route of lighting a zillion candles when life hands them lemons.

3. They may not have that type of devotional paradigmn.  What someone has a personal relationship with the Gods that differes from you, say it aint so.  The Gods may be asking them for different things, oh noes.

IN other words, stick your nose back in your own business,(You can start by getting rid of the idea of tradition and mystery for reconstruction, this isn't BTW wicca, and you aint Gardner) clean your own house and stay the hell out of others.  We aren't jealous of you, you cultic power hungry quack, we choose our own way of dealing with our Gods.

Something that bugs me and I need to vent about.

My son, is learning at the local Methodist church about Christianity.  I know the Pastor and I trust her.  I know some of the people there and they are good people.  My son has not decided what religion he is.

However at his school, he went and said Hail to the meat one day.  That evoked a comment from one of the teachers.  Apparently she was not pleased with that, and told him, that is taking the lords name in vain.  He didn't talk back or anything.  However it bothers me that she felt that was ok to do.  Here are the reasons:

1.  It is not your place to put your religious convictions on my child.  You are disrespecting me as a parent.  Back the heck off.

2.  It's hail to the meat, how the hell is that taking the lords name in vain?  I thought that was swears with J and or G-D or G-d dangit.

3. Separation of church and state dangit.

4. Seriously, you can be serious about your religion, but you are getting upset about Hail to the Meat?!!!!!  Chill out.

On the other hand, I am aghast that my son is afraid to speak up, because he is not comfortable telling the teachers, that he doesn't feel it's ok for them to not put their religious choices on him.(ok that is more tactful then he is but still).  What happened to critical thinking and encouraging our children to use it.  Why are we using so much respect my authoritay!11!!!!!!!!1111! and less questioning authoritay?  That is disturbing to me.

Ok, thank you for listening.

Trust

People have said, that when you are at your worst, you should be on your knees praying the most.  That you should let go and let God(AA).  That you should trust in the will of the Gods.  That is when you should do devotions to the Gods.

That's all pretty phrasing, but really difficult to follow.  The fear, the palpable fear, is there.  You have adrenaline going.  You are worried.  You are stressed.  And that's just the emotional reaction when you have regular bad stress.  When the shit really hits the fan, and you are trying to keep it together it is really hard to trust.

When your life is going to crap, the last thing you want to hear, is trust.  What you need is a hug.  What you need are solutions.  What you need is a hand up.

When the bad shit in 2010 happened, I broke inside.  I grieved.  I trusted because I had nothing else to trust and yeah the kids and I are ok for now.  But there was deep simmering anger.  There still is to a degree. Because it is one thing to put me through hell, it's another for it to affect my kids, and I resent that.  I wanted better for my children.  I also wonder, when the shit is going to stop, when will life stop being a constant struggle.

Currently, offerings of food and drink will be fewer than they had been in the past.  Not because I don't love my Gods, but because money is going to be tighter.  Before offerings can be made, I have to make sure, my kids and I have enough to get through the month.  (and I forgot to get the fat for the crows, sigh, and the bird seed).

That episode in 2010, almost had me negating my relationship with the Gods.  It didn't help that Yahweh and Loki both forbade me in helping with spell work.  I was told unequivocally NO!  If I did, consequences would happen.  I had to sit and wait, and be helpless, and it killed me inside when the waiting was over.  To say I didn't agree with the outcome is an understatement.  To say I think it was to harsh is also another understatement.  On top of that, to not know what I was going to do, was also an understatement.
http://davensjournal.com/perceived-relationships-with-the-gods

Though to hear some of the BNP's talk, I should have been giving devotions.  My heart nor my soul were in that mind frame.  I was in survival mode.  The only thing that kept me going, was me needing to take care of the kids.

I didn't stop having a relationship with my Gods.  I did let them know I was angry, why I was angry.  That I was deeply hurt, and that my trust had been broken.  We are still repairing that.  We are still repairing me.  I have triggers and PTSD that, I am still figuring out and trying to fix.  I am more fragile and yet more strong than I was before.

I am only now finding out some of the reasons.  The other reasons, I don't know.  I do trust(grudgingly)It is hard, rightfully so.

Even if you have gone through hell, telling someone else, that when shit is hard, is when they need to do the devotions more, is bullshit.  If you can't lend an ear, then get out of the way.  If you can't hug, get out of the way.  If you can't or won't lend a hand up, then get the hell outta the way.

Piety

The recent kerfluffle is about Piety.  It also is about respecting the Gods.  It also seems to be about whom to listen to.  I covered the whole who to listen to, in my post below.

Now on Piety.  Smurfette from the Smurfette principle http://stephyjh.wordpress.com/about-the-work/ Is just if not more pious than someone who gives offerings on a daily basis.  She's doing something imp, tasked to her by Bridgette, she's making quilts for young ones in the hospital, who otherwise may not get any blanket coverings.  Now I do not know if she makes other offerings(eats or does not eat them) to Brigid, nor do I know if Brigid even wants those, instead of her doing the work.

Do I give regular offerings, no.  I do it, half hazardly, like I do when I think about close friends and see something shiny for them, that i know would make them smile.  My offerings are not part of my piety, it's hey I was thinking of you, heres something yummy.  Though the fact that I am starting to want to have more yummy foods vs foods that survive, means I'm healing, from a deep pain, that happened in 2010.

I do votive offerings of candles more often.  Again that is more recent.  Prior to that I had statues.  But!! That does not make me impious.  It just means I've run into information that shows that Gods like offerings and I give them.  (speaking of which I need to get some to put outside for the birds).

I do however, put broken peopel together.  That is my biggest job.  That is what they want me to do. I pay for a felons car insurance on my car insurance, even though I don't have a lot of money.  I do it, out of love. I have used my Photography to help Christian Churches, and that is part of my ethics my Gods want me to adhere to.  I learn, in order to help others.  I am the voice of the Gods for those that need one(any God).That is more important to them, than whether I leave regular offerings.

To say that someone is impious because they don't leave offerings the way you do, is hubris.  You do not know of what their Gods have them do, or what they have agreed to do.  It is also busybody as hell.  It screams of Sister Bertha Better then you(Ray Stevens Mississippi Squirrel revival) In short, stop poking your nose in, where it isn't warranted.

Devotion and respect to the Gods

Ahhh joy another drama storm is brewing about the interwebs.  You can read the origins here:http://saltyourbones.wordpress.com/2013/12/21/on-classism-paganism-and-the-piety-posse/#comments and here http://satsekhem.wordpress.com/2013/12/23/poor-as-fuck-polytheism/
and here http://nornoriel.dreamwidth.org/293877.html?mode=reply and here(this one defends it)http://forestdoor.wordpress.com/2013/12/19/for-polytheists/#comment-4056 and here http://roguesareth.wordpress.com/2013/12/23/poverty-piety-and-paganism/

I'm sure there are other places I have missed.  I've already vented my spleen and had my say, so I won't say it redundantly here.  You can read my posts there if you are so inclined.

Ok that being said, it bring to mind an interesting questions.  How do we show devotion to the Gods.  Do we do it as others do, and do so religiously(pun not intended) or do we do it out of love?  If we owe the Gods piety and offerings, do they owe us as well?  Is there give and take?

My opinion.  I offer out of love.  For me it isn't about being a good Pagan and getting some sort of reward, it is about doing something that brings me closer.  I offer them what I make for food(or teach my daughter to make).  I offer what I have on hand.  If I have extra money and I am in the grocery store and they ask for something I try to provide it, because I like doing that.  I do that also for friends and family. It pleases me to please those that I love.

However, there is a balance.  If the Gods want offerings to show them respect, then respect needs to be shown to you as well.  Also you should first respect yourself.

 I can here the gasps now.

We are not our ancestors.  We do not need to toss the virgin in the volcano to placate the angry God to stop ourselves from dying.  The relationship has changed, or has it?

In the feudal system, you gave to the Lords, who gave to the ones in power, who gave to the King.  In turn the those in power were supposed to look out for you and protect you from dangers.  (History has shown what a poor system that was).  In what I have read(and I forget the sources or I'd link them) you gave to the spirits because they looked out for you.  The Gods grew from that.

Ie, There was a give and take.

Ok lets get out of the academic and mental world.

The Gods and their devotees have their own relationships.  It is not one size fit all.  Though some bnp's seem to think we should take what they say from on high, and the rest be laity giving to the Gods.  I think they forget we don't necessarily need them to talk to the Gods for us, many of us can do it ourselves.  I think they forget we have our own relationships with the Gods and the Gods don't always ask the same from everyone.

Also I am highly uncomfortable with the idea, that if you do not do x devotions or giving to the Gods, you are a bad Pagan.   It is the same mentality that I ran into in some of the Christian Churches.  I found it problematic.  It puts God/Yahweh first and you should obey, and not question.  You should live your life to please him.

I don't think that attitude is a healthy one.  Now some Pagans may do that, but they choose to do so.  For every Pagan or Polytheist to do so, feels unhealthy to me.  Also my Gods want me to question.  I was also kicking myself for participating in the drama, before I realized standing up and calling out bullshit is a holy devotion for me.

Smurfette has a different obligation to Bridgette then I do to Loki and my other Gods.  She needs to make quilts.  I help put broken people together, speak for the Gods, do devotions if they wish, and study and learn  and probably have a career arguing.  (if I get my college shit done).  The Gods have asked or told us to do stuff, and we have accepted.  She is not me and I am not her.  We definitely are not Dver, and Sannion, or Tess.

Lets also talk about people have different responsibilities.  Who should come first, Gods or the Kids?  Is it devotion to give food to the Gods that could go to your hungry kids?  Would the Gods approve?  Do you not have the right to balance and make sure your life is as stable as it can be, before giving to the Gods? Seems like those arguing, do not think you do.  I disagree.

I believe you need to assess and take care of your needs.  If you do not, you risk falling apart and then you can't give the Gods or do what they ask.  I think I would have a huge issue if my Gods demanded me to give offerings I can't afford at the expense of my children.  For Gods that pushed me to argue, to thrown down the B.S flag, I'd probably have a go at it with them. (uh oh I see smiling).  Nor do I think it would be impious to do so.  See my conflict resolution post.  It's addressing at that point, an issue.

We Polytheists have a relationship with the Gods.  The rules are not in the books nor are written by the BNP's.  It is written by what we agree to and the boundaries we set and the stuff we negotiate(those of us that can hear them).

Conflict Resolution

The online people I have known over the years have truly suckish conflict resolution skills.  They do all the unhealthy shit in this link.  http://www.helpguide.org/mental/eq8_conflict_resolution.htm .  Offline, it's a mixed bag.  The older folks who have been around and understand their triggers do a pretty decent job.  However conflict resolution is not something I see as being taught or encouraged.

Read the link, it has great information.  It is something I learned in interpersonal communication in college. Knowing and understanding the above stuff in the link, will help you in relationships.

my take on Star Foster and her blog on if you have a shitty life it's because you worship shitty Gods

Her blog can be found here:  http://starfosterblog.wordpress.com/2013/10/28/square-gods-we-are-what-we-worship/   I found out about it by reading Fluid Morality's rant on it.  I think she has some very cogent points.  http://fluidmorality.wordpress.com/2013/10/29/victim-blame-game/#comments  I also happen to like Ruadhan's poits as well.  http://thespiae.oddmodout.com/2013/10/29/close-but-no-bananas-you-have-no-bananas-today/

Way to go, labeling a bunch of Polytheists(hard or soft), who have relationships with the more uncomfortable Gods, as a bunch of kids looking to spice up their life.  It isn't because they have anything deeper, than to get rid of ennui.  Thanks, I didn't realize I had nominated you my cranky mom or English victorian judgemental aunt.

Plus, really, way to insult those Deities who have different spheres of influence then those that may look "safe".  Eris may be scary, and the Greek Goddess of Chaos and disorder, but sometimes we need that to shake us up.  I can't believe you had the cajones to label her as a Bad Goddess.  The only ones I know talk lightly of her, are Discordians, and they have developed a relationship with her.  It's one thing to critique and say you need to rethink your stance, it's quite another to blatantly insult and moralize what Gods are good Gods vs Bad Gods.

You go and say, that Gods aren't plug and play devices.  However then you go on about how these so called "square Gods are better".  You may feel that they are better for you now.  However are you choosing them or you them?  This isn't fluffy bunny Wicca, where you choose a God from a list with it's properties, this is Polytheism.  The Gods usually choose their followers, and it takes a while for things to develop.  They establish relationships and trust is formed.

Your take on Gods, is very two dimensional and naive.  If Hestia so wishes, she will rearrange your life, to make things go her way.  It is not only the trickster Gods that do so.  Idunna is a Gardener, if she thinks you need weeds pulled out of your life, she will not hesitate to do so.  I wouldn't even go so far as to label Zeus as square either(have you read his myths? he wields lightning, he's the Patriarch of a Pantheon.   Mayhaps understanding the drama and hellaballoo involved in politics and power would dissuade you of his squareness).

All of the Gods have points that we are comfortable with and points that make us feel very uncomfortable. That even holds true for the Christian Gods(Yahweh and the flood, Jesus anger at the money lender at the temple, Demeter causing winter and famine when her daughter was taken, ).  The Dark Gods are more upfront with their uncomfortable parts.  While Loki is a trickster, and has his scary parts(and people should think carefully before taking him on, even if he is poking you, we do have choices in this) I have found in my experience he is also very honest.


You say Frigga is less interesting than Loki, which is insulting to her.  She isn't some frumpy house frau lady.  She's the matriarch of the Norse Pantheon and she isn't above kicking some ass along the way.  If you choose to still stick her in the whole stay at home mother routine of the Gods, maybe you should realize, that those mothers are usually feared and respected and weren't above ordering, rearranging, using cast iron skillets on dense noggins, and tough love.


Now the one that really gets me. (oh lets be frank all of it gets my goat) She's insulting my Gods.He is family and i love him.  And one of the things you don't do to those I love, is speak bad about them. You don't say bad things about my kids, you don't talk bad about my husband, and you certainly don't talk shit about my Dads.

Loki has done many things in my life, and no it wasn't to cure ennui.  He took me by the scruff of my neck(with my other Gods help.  Cernunnos certainly wasn't quiet) and showed me I was in an abusive relationship.  He Socratically made me think and helped me choose better choices. If she had bothered to do more basic research, (ok if she had bothered to look beyond preconceptions, prejudices, and do her duty since she wants to act as a theologian in this article, she might have found things are a lot richer and complex then she puts)  she might find that he does that a lot for those that worship him, beyond the Tom Hiddleness.

Loki has more depth to him, then the fact that he is a shape changing, gender bending, God of pranks(if you wish to look at him lightly) or the Norse Satan, if you wish to take the more hard line Asatru stance.  For one thing, to many of his worshippers, he's a pretty darn good psychologist who makes you see what you are doing, through stages and changes you for the better.  Not many other Gods can do it, because for some of his followers, we were broken, before he took us and duct taped us together.  We certainly owe him more than, thanks for all the fish but Star thinks you are scary so we are gonna go play with Thor now.

Then she goes on to say, that she'd rather have Dagda on her side then Morrigan.  Really lady?  Have you READ any of the Irish myths.  Should I remind you of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Chulainn, Several great grandfathers before him had pissed off the Morrigan by disrespecting her and she cursed that family for 7 generations.

The Morrigan has a temper, there are some Gods it's best to tread lightly with, even if you are going to caution against.  You are going to spurn the Goddess of Fate! I mean I like, and more importantly respect the Morrigan.  She is a lot more than the bitching badass of war.  She has a lot of depth to her.  Thanks so much for continuing the prejudice that she's just a Bitch(I asked permission if she was ok with this)

Besides someone who is in the military, Morrigan works well with someone who is going into law(being a lawyer, cop, advocate etc).  She does have a temper.  She also loves deeply and has passion. She however also does have an iron steel spined and shows the more tough side, then her love side.  The best example I would use is an Irish Matriarch.

Not that the Dagda doesn't have his own temper and dark side.  Reading some of the myths may show you, just who you are dealing with.  You are white washing the Gods you feel comfortable with.  You are putting modern values on those Gods, and forgetting they don't forgive like Jesus.  That isn't a very good or safe idea and can get you in trouble.

I think next time lady you go off and pedantically preach about what others need to avoid, you should take some time and try not to insult entire Pantheons, even those you think are "good".  Maybe actually read beyond one or two myths that have been sanitized for readers.  Actually try to get to know the Gods.  Knock on their doors respectfully, offer tea and coffee.  Maybe then, once you have done some work on this, I will take your blathering of you are who you worship, with more respect and seriousness.

Calling Bs on Apuleius Platonicus that ancient Pagans were not as bad as Christians

His comment was, you could not find in all of ancient history, where a conquered people were forced to convert by their Pagan conquerors. Thread to which it came from see the comments(now closed)http://wildhunt.org/2013/10/pagan-voices-vivianne-crowley-peter-dybing-thorn-coyle-and-more.html  Mind you TadhgMor made the reply I was thinking of, but he originally started this debate calling out bigotry on Islam, when someone had written convert or die theme, which makes me roll my eyes.

my reply, which I must admit doesn't really show other then Aknaten(and he didn't really conquer Egypt so much as he was the Pharoah, but he did radically change stuff in Egypt, and it was my way or die mentality) The Romans were doing this to an already conquered region, but I think it still applies.
Akhnaten http://www.heptune.com/Akhnaten.html

http://www.roman-empire.net/religion/religion.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diocletianic_Persecution
Yes I am using wiki, gives a decent overview. Mind you during some of the Emperors it wasn't just Christians but also Jews that were persecuted. 

http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/history/persecution.htm

http://www.unrv.com/culture/christian-persecution.php

Mind you this whole theme of Pagans aren't as bad as Christians and or Islam is asinine.  It's ignoring the ancient atrocities that went on back then.  Lets name a few shall we.

Crucifiction, not only the Romans loved this method.  (See what they did to Spartacus) http://www.bible.ca/d-history-archeology-crucifixion-cross.htm

The lovely Brazen Bull, where you stuck people you didn't like, into a Bronze bull, lit a fire under it's belly and the screams of the dying, made it sound like an angry bull.

The Norse liked to turn you into an eagle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_eagle  This is where you take someone cut their ribs by the spine, pull them out, and pull out the lungs. shudders

Here is a site that shows some of them

http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/news-12-most-exorbitant-and-vicious-execution-methods-worlds-history?image=1

I've heard some Pagans complain about the Burning of the library at Alexandria, completely ignoring that the first burning was done by Julius Caesar.  Yes the Christians did burn the library, but by the time they had gotten to it, much of the library was gone.

The Christians and the Muslims are no more aholes, then our ancient fore fathers and mothers were.  Before you start poking fingers, make sure your own home is immune from having stones thrown on it.  In regards to Christians being worse then Pagans, our own glass windows won't stand the test on that.  Hell some of what the Christians did, they learned from Rome.  Though we should keep in mind, the Saints and Martyrs persecution, when next we point fingers at how teh Gays are making society fall down, or any other group we don't understand.

Values

So I realized most of what I am writing pertains to values.  I value critical thinking, conflict resolution, freedom, transparency and many other things.  I value maturity, vs being the cool kid on the block.

I also have other values that I find to be more important.  I do look for those values in others, but that is me.

For those who teach, I look to see if they can take being questioned.  If they can't, then they are in it for the ego and won't do well for my Sagittarius self.  Why, being a Holy word:P

I value adaptability in thought.  Life doesn't always throw us the same curve balls.  Just because some ancient who ha did something, doesn't mean we need to, or it can't be adapted to more modern means.

I value transparency.  It helps in weeding out the predators in Paganism.  Issac Bonewits made a scale that I think everyone should take a look at.  It helps to see if you are in a cult.  http://www.unc.edu/~reddeer/tenets/00_bonewits.scale.html

I value the Greek maxim Know thyself.  It helps in figuring out your strengths and weaknesses. I'll try to get the context behind it, for those who are interested.

A value that I have that is not inline with many of the Pagans, is aggression.  If someone or something were to come after me or those I love, I take the shot gun method.  Many non BTW Wiccans find that abhorrent, as they are more passive, but I'm a pretty aggressive woman.  I take the castle doctrine to magic.

I'm also the type of personality that finds you have to earn respect.  I grant civility, but anything beyond that has to be earned.  That means elders and invisible thingies alike.  But once you get my loyalty you get it, unless something big comes along that you do that takes that away.

Forgiveness, I think should be addressed more in the Pagan community.  We all screw up.  I think we as humans are too quick to judge, and keep that judgement.  We only change it, when bad things happen, and we are forced to empathize.

The victim mentality, and referencing bad history, needs to be axed out.  There are those of us, who have been victimized that need to be given time, but there are those of us in the Pagan community that like the attention that it gives them.

People like Pam Curtis who have had to hold on by their fingernails, who have gone through several doctors to figure out what is wrong with them.  But she's there for others when she can be.  I think that we need to get our heads out of our butts and see what our fellow Pagans are really suffering from.  Lack of ego stroking, and not enough people paying attn to you is not what I consider a valid disorder, depression yes, but not enough attn, no.

I give Kudos to Krasskova for her monthly oracular work that she does for free.  I give Kudos to those who do the monthly oracular work.  I think that Pagans in general should look beyond themselves to what they can give to the community at large.  We need more Prison Chaplains who care, understand and are forgiving. We need more doers.  We as Pagans, no matter what we call ourselves, need to also support the doers and help out.  We as Pagans should work with our Christian brethren and help out the existing charities.

This blog post, is what encouraged my deep thoughts on values.  http://krasskova.weebly.com/1/post/2013/10/polytheistic-values.html  Unlike John Halstead who wants things to be so inclusive, as to render no meaning to labels, she goes the other way.  I agree with Veggie wolf(http://fluidmorality.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/polytheistic-values-a-words-mean-things-response/), in the one true way, slut shaming and bigotry toward Monotheists.  You can see that latter part in the comment section.

Moreover, I take some amount of annoyance, at the whole concept that Pagan values need to be applied universally.  Pagans are like cats, it's really hard to herd them, even if you use tuna.  That is one of the Pro's and the Con's.  I also take umbrage with Krasskova, coming across as my elder and trying to apply her values universally.  My response that I've been keeping under my hat is Bitch Please, back off.

I think we need to respect other religions area of authority and values and ethics falls under that.  Making ethics that you want to stick on the Kemetics, the Asatru, the Wiccans, is just really annoying and getting a tad to big for your britches.  It's just as annoying as the many Wiccans trying to preach the three fold law and how it applies to EVERYBODY.

While I work with the dead, I don't think that ancestor veneration should be universal.  I can't believe I'm referencing Aine, but this post, brings up some very valid points.  http://www.patheos.com/blogs/ainellewellyn/2013/10/why-i-dont-worship-my-ancestors/ .  If you have bad blood with your current relatives, it isn't going to go away when they die.  Bad relationships with parents and relatives, usually goes back many generations, it is a learned trait.  We inherit our crazy baggage after all.

Other issues, many of our ancestors are Christian.  How are they going to feel being venerated in a more Pagan way?  You need to take their feelings into consideration.  Nor would I put ancestor worship on the same level as worshiping our Gods.

I have issues with her Universal values.  Ok honestly, that's my biggest issue.  Nor do I think her claim that taking most of the ancient world and or ancient Polytheists, that these values are universal.

Modesty, is a Christian value.  The non sexual one is all about the meek inheriting the earth part.  Aka dont' brag about yourself.  It has it's place, but I don't see the ancients really being all gung ho about it.  Sexual modesty, again is a Christian one and outside Roman matrons, I don't see it being too applicable and frankly, I wouldn't want to encourage it, it is very much a Patriarchal thing(ie, woman don't make other men think hot thoughts about you)

Personally one of the things I like about the Pagan community is our lack of shame on body stuff.  Hell one of the warmest memories I have is being in a Pagan shop in Everett Washington, and asking if anyone minded if I breast fed my child without covering.  No one cared, and I was able to whip them out, in comfort and feed my child.  Later, I got some star trek thing hennaed on my boob by two gay guys.  It was star trek innuendo for my husband to enjoy(and no I don't remember what it said, only that it was geeky innuendo)

ok Courage was encouraged, mostly in the war theater

Piety, makes me feel weird, because I really don't want to go the way of the Conservative Christian.  I think balance needs to be applied and choices need to be made and respected.  It's way to easy to forget yourself and do stuff all for the Gods.  It may not be mentally and emotionally healthy and I definitely don't want us giving up objectivity and start voting the way our Gods dictate.

Respecting the Diversity of Gods, I can't see being universal.  Plus this is Krasskova being liberal.

Meh, is my thoughts.

Monotheism hate in Pagandom

I want to start this out, by saying I find the first amendment SACRED with all capital letters.  From a legal perspective one could say I'm an originalist on this, though I do acknowledge modern innovations.  But I pretty much believe that the first amendment needs to be left alone.  That means free speech and religion.

But things I've noticed over the years that get to me.  The hate from Pagans on Christianity.  It disturbs me.  It leaves me shaking my head.  I get it, many Pagans come from painful back religious experiences, but it's still not healthy to hate an entire religion or religions, and wish for their destruction.

On a more personal level, to hate that religion is to hate the Episcopalian pastors I knew in Mississippi, all three of them.  To hate the religion is to hate that Southern Baptist preacher down the road, that I know.  To hate that religion is to hate Leslye Haller(https://www.facebook.com/leslye.haller) another Pastor I know that lives down the lane.  To hate the religion is to hate my good friend Misty Watson who I LOVE, capital letters being imp to distinguish from small love.

To me, hating the religion is personal.  You hate people I know and care about.  You insult them, when you rage against monotheists, even the Christian fundamentalist monotheists, because you rage against people I know.  Plus, you are chipping away at the 1st amendment, which I believe to be Sacred and Holey.

Disagree with the monotheistic faiths.  Hell I admit be being deeply uncomfortable with much if not all of Islam.  My feminist beginnings play a major part in that.  But I don't hate the faith.  I have deep and abiding reservations about it.

It isn't particularly useful either.  It isn't going away.  You certainly won't shut up, just make stronger their convictions, those of the Christian political arena, that you wish to shut up.  Which frankly, if you are entitled to your views, so are they.  What's good for the goose is good for the gander type of thought process.

It just leaves me shaking my head.  It leaves me disturbed.  It leaves me wondering, why hardly anyone else realizes that there is a sickness there.  Why is this being continually encouraged in Pagandom?

Hubris in Pagan world

So I saw this post on the Pagan laugh place.  https://www.facebook.com/PaganLaughs?hc_location=stream and you will have to scroll to the photo of There are more of us then you think comments.  Faceybook does not give me easier ways to link, or else I would.

Anyway, the theme on this was, someone was wearing their pent.  Someone came up and went oh you are an Anarchist, how cool.  The person was like, no I'm Wiccan.  Which no longer show up on that picture and the text has been changed.

That started a round of people going, there have been a number of times, that someone has said to me, oh you are Jewish and I've commented, what you can't count?  To a few other comments.  Turns out thought the Pentagram is a multi religious symbol.  The Christians thought it was the 5 wounds of Christ and effective against demons.  To Jews it's truth and other stuff.  http://symboldictionary.net/?p=1893

What got me, was the whole snarky, Epic fail comments.  Or the hypocritical and ironic comments of, which apparently have since been deleted and the post has been changed, of even the Jewish people don't realize the number of points.

Lets address that Hubris shall we...  Know your own religious iconography, and that requires more research then Wicca 101 books on Llewellyn.    It doesn't take more then a cursory glance at Ceremonial Magic to realize that the Pent, has a history with Kabbala(or however it is spelled), so that no, Wiccans do not own it exclusively.

Lets also address the whole issue of people not knowing what your religion is.  Get over yourself.  Wicca and whatever Flavor of Pagan you are, while getting better known, is not that mainstream that everyone will know.  Stop being an ass, because someone doesn't recognize your jewelry.

It also irritates me, because it makes the people who practice this religion look like petulant children.  Not understanding the history of your religious iconography also makes you look like a fluffy ignorant Pagan.

There being more of you, then people think, is not necessarily something I'd crow about.  Especially when those numbers come from immature yahoo's with victim complexes, who are fairly self centered.  When the Pagan community matures to something beyond the level of a five year old, then we've gotten somewhere.  Sheer numbers of annoying twats, is not a milestone.

Not even going to address the whole changing of the post thing.  Thats irritating on a whole nother level.

Jungian spirituality and Pantheism.

There are valid ways to be Pantheist.  There are valid ways to use Jungian thought forms.  I personally find it bland and uninspiring but that's me.  Hell there are even valid ways to do Pop Culture spirituality, see many of the people who are doing Jedi.  Taylor Ellwood manages to do it.

I also find it a safe way to practice religion.  With a Jungian thought form, or pop culture icon, or even all Gods are One God and all Goddess are one Goddess, you aren't risking a Deity being mad at you, for not managing your relationship right.  Which is what us Polytheists have with our Deities, a relationship.

When all Gods are one God and all Goddesses are one Goddess(and why don't we just merge the two into some sort of Monotheism, I dunno) it leaves the door open for permission to culturally appropriate.  Why it's then perfectly ok to insert Kwan Yin(http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhism/deities/kuan_yin.htm) into the role of Goddess in a Wiccanesque ritual.  It is also then perfectly ok to insert Osiris into the role of God in that ritual.  (http://www.religionfacts.com/neopaganism/paths/kemetic.htm).  Likewise it is also ok to use Santa Muerte(http://witchrants.wordpress.com/tag/santa-muerte/) and Coyote.

These Deities, all have their own cultures that they are part of.  It is insulting to insert them into a Wiccanesque ritual, because you are too lazy to learn how they are worshiped where they are at.  It is insulting to pick them out of a Gods list and stick them in a ritual, because you like some of their shallow personality traits, or whatever power you think they hold over the universe.  It is also lazy.  The Gods, even thought forms aren't some plug and play device.

If you aren't sure about the Gods, then use neutral terms.  Use Lady or Lord or whatever Title seems appropriate.  Unknown God or Goddess, or sacred whosywhatsit, or Queen or what the role is, you think they should be.  But don't grab a God and stick them into that role, without doing some research, or even asking and really listening.  Would you want to be grabbed and instructed to give blessings on asphalt pot holes, when you are a doctor?

The roots of this are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Goddess and http://www.nostrajewellery.org/files/M-A-Murray-The-God-of-the-Witches.pdf.  The first is written by a poet, in the early 1900's.  The second by an anthropologist, also early in the 1900's.  Both were found out to be wrong.

Yeah it's beautiful writing.  It evokes beautiful metaphors.  It is also too clean and puts the poetic thing on a pedestal.  It is a painting of an idea, not a picture of the Deity. It is the writing of a troubadour, someone who reveres a lady, but from afar.  Sounds romantic, but the troubadour doesn't have to deal with the pms or the morning sickness either.

There are richer tales from where the White Goddess came from.  Look to the http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/cft/, or the Eddas(granted colored in Christian theology).  Look to the tales of that land, not the prettied up stories told by later poets.  It's akin to reading and worshiping Mother Goose vs the real Grimms fairy tales.

I'll come back to this later tonight.  I'm starting to type in circles.

Fired up rant

Do not get on me, for being mean.  Look up the definition of a rant.  This is the only caveat you will get.

So the past week or so, I had commented here. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/allergicpagan/2013/09/28/what-a-pagan-can-tell-you-about-whether-mormons-are-christian/  I had ignored it after a few days until cough "Quentin" had replied to me.  Quentin knows who he is, shakes my head.

It is this type of Pagan that many of the Pagans listen to.  There are many things wrong, in my opinion, with what he says.  And he is an example of what I find wrong with the Pagan sphere.

1. His research sucks a lot.  He put Galina Krasskova(in an earlier blog) in with Heathens and authority, when any small modicum of research would show that no, she is most assuredly not.  Galina and Asatru equals shit storm.( I don't agree with the Heathens on this, but whatev, point is, he didn't look past his darn nose and opinion)

2.I despise this word, I despise the politics behind it, but I'm going to use it.  It is awfully privileged to tell Quentin, who is gay, whether he can use the word Fag.  Screw privileged it is HUBRIS.  John you are straight and granted you may be a supporter of LGBT, and it may be your blog(A blog that is on Patheos and ergo kinda a semi professional zine type thing, but I"ll get to that later), but to say you can't say that on my blog without more of a reason is Hubris pure and simple.  You don't get to dictate, ignore and sweep under the rug the reclaimed term Fag that a Gay guy is using.  There are very good and essential reasons he was using it.  Quit beigeing the world, cause someone might be offended.

3. He demands acceptance of his stance.  He is a Jungian Pagan, who wants to claim he is Polytheistic.  No, you aren't.  You don't follow Gods, you follow psychological thought forms(Jung is a Psychiatrist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Jung  Jung is a school in psychology, so is Freud(the father of psychoanalysis, not the father of psychology).  While some of his stuff is interesting, I can not support him defining himself as a Polytheist, when some research points him more as a Pantheist.  http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/polytheism Pantheist definition. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pantheist Definition of Deity.  http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deity Definition of God http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/god

A Jungian thought form is not a God.  I wouldn't even put it as a god.  I will support you, if you want to worship that way, cause frankly it aint no skin off my nose if you choose to do so.  I will open the Pagan tent to you, but for the Love of the GODS quit trying to define yourself as something you aint.

4.  Quit making people into meany fundy pooh pooh heads if they have the temerity to say you are wrong.  See his article and his link to Galina Krasskova.  It isn't mean, unethical to say someone is wrong.  I realize this is a great sin in today's Pagan land, of special snowflakes and their fragile hypersensitive ego's, but dayum.

He also has a huge problem with Scalia and labels him the huge sinful name of Fundamentalist and demagogue there too.  Scalia isn't, he's a bloody Strict Constitutionalist.  He took after William H Rehnquist, one of the chief Justices of the Supreme court.  Halstead is a Lawyer and should know better btw.  You are taught how to argue, you are taught how to source and research for fraks sake.

5.How the hell can I argue the seriousness of Pagandom, with people like this as Big name Pagans, to my local Methodist minister,or the Southern Baptist preacher.  How, when frankly my 14 year old and my 9 year old act with more maturity on being told they are wrong.  Hell my 14 year old can debate better and source herself better.

What bugs me the most is, while he writes mature, the emotion behind it is basically all the teenage angst of someone rebelling against their parents.  That isn't mature theology.  I can't argue that my local ministers should respect it, when I have a hard time.

I'll edit in more later

grumbly moonie